(no subject)

[lapsedmodernist]

What do you think will happen if this election is also stolen Obama doesn't win? Seriously, what will happen? Will there be riots in the streets? Will the stock market completely crash? Will the US lose its rapidly shrinking middle class and be a full-fledged "third world" country within 5 years?

Alternately, what if he does win? I assume initially the dollar will bounce...but okay, what else? Can he even do anything with the treasury looted and the infrastructure one nail short of a closed coffin? Yeah, I read his plan, but when I read things like eliminating taxes on unemployment benefits, I think of *STATES* (like Massachussetts and California) that are literally running out of money and can't get more from the gov't--like, where the fuck are they going to get the cash to PAY OUT unemployment benefits in the first place?

Comments

[monkeypunk.livejournal.com]

Honestly? I think if Obama doesn't win people will fuss a little, then turn quietly back to their TVs where the talking head pundits will use shiny graphics to convince them that it was all above board. All the people who woke from their life-long stupor to get involved will decide it didn't make a difference and go back to caring a lot about whatever prime time television show is on, until the economy is so bad they can't afford to keep the electricity on anymore. The country will continue it's slide towards fascism and the intelligent and able will continue to quietly emigrate whenever they can.

If Obama does win, I think the economy will continue to decline, and things will get worse and worse, but hopefully as the leader of the nation he'll be able to inspire those people who got motivated to wake up and get involved in helping one another, and eventually (like in 10 years) things will slowly recover.

[wolodymyr.livejournal.com]

I think dismissing other Americans as too stupid to live is our national pass time. I vote for something else, like lawn bowling or dominoes.

[emchelle.livejournal.com]

Word.

[wolodymyr.livejournal.com]

As firepower points out to me from time to time, California could end its budget crisis today, right now, if it stopped incarcerating people for drug offenses. If it did a wholesale reevaluation of who's in jail for what, it - and here I'll switch to we, because I fucking live here, this is what I live with - we would have a surplus.

We could have all of it - state parks, decent public education, whatever we wanted, if we did two things:

1. Stopped letting ourselves be held hostage by the prison guards' unions
and
2. Taxed owners of real property like just about everyone else does.

We wanted to let landowners off the hook for any kind of commitment to social goods like roads and schools and hospitals, and we've decided our prison guards are absolutely and by far our most important employees.

And we could stop it any time we wanted, if we wanted it badly enough.

[flintultrasparc.livejournal.com]

It looks like Obama is going to win. Election fraud, I think, is only a plausible strategy in the U.S. when the vote is particularly close. Ofcourse, just because he is elected does not mean that he'll have the opportunity to govern; there are plenty of ill omens.

The real question, though, is where to get money so that the government can infuse markets with capital, hopefully in the form of infrastructure improvement (Obama seems to be touting a new green deal; an ecological form of Keynesianism ).

Where to get the money?


Reduce the $500 billion annual Department of Defense's budget--it's half the U.S. federal discretionary budget and it's half of the worlds entire military spending.

The war on Iraq has cost $560 billion so far, and it's there estimates on it's cost with interest could take it as high as $3 trillion. Nothing can be done about the money already spent, but it's obvious that the U.S can not afford to continue in it's current method, nor expand occupational wars in Afghanistan (and also, not expand into Iran, etc...)

The War on Drugs costs $49 billion annually. I think drug treatment on demand is a far more viable program than interdiction. Also, with it moving out of a black market commodity, there could be reduction in violent crime.

$4.5 billion in Foreign Military Financing going to Israel, Egypt , etc... and the $1.6 billion going to Columbia, Peru, etc... combat narcotics. Israel and Egypt receive one-third of the total $22 billion in U.S Foreign Aid, the majority of which pays for armaments. I'd cut that. When you look at that spending over decades, and realize that all of Africa's debt is only $300 billion, it seems that the U.S. has had very poor priorities in terms of it's foreign aid.

The U.S.-Mexico border fence is costing $49 billion for 25 years. Let's stop building it, and not maintain it.

Federal subsidies to highways is $33 billion annually, a portion of the $100 billion that roads cost us annually. Stop building new highways like the NAFTA superhighway, stop expanding existing highways that do little relieve congestion and traffic. Instead, make a smarter choice by investing in rail. After years of the Federal government starving Amtrak at $500 million a year, they recently raised to $2.6 billion. Seeing more rail freight over longhaul over the road trucking would be good as well.

Federal subsidies to air travel was $14 billion in 2002, plus the $15 billion bailout after 9/11. That doesn't include the costs of physical capital costs like building and maintaining airports. More trains, less planes.

Federal agricultural subsidies to crops for feed lot production of meat $2.8 billion in feed grains in 2004. Cut that. If people want meat, they'll have to pay for it. The U.S. should stop subsidizing the unhealthy overconsumption of meat by folks in the U.S. There might even be health care cost benefits by cutting this subsidy.

The death penalty costs $1.6 billion over 15 years; this cost is increasing. It'll cost California $4 billion to execute the prisoners currently on it's death row.

I'd focus on infrastructure improvements that take advantage of population density (like mass transit), and not engage in infrastructure improvements for low density (suburban/exburban) development. Suburbia has a lot of not so hidden costs.

Ofcourse, if you made all these changes... the U.S. would look a lot more like the "socialist" social democracies of Europe that McCain and company so deride.

If there is a place to put infrastructure investment, I think we'll get the most out of investing in renewable energy (solar thermal, solar photovoltaic, tidal, geothermal, wind) and in large scale, organic LED vertical hydroponics which would greatly decrease food transportation miles, reduce the use of pesticides and fertilizers, increase annual yield and reduce land usage for agriculture.

[wolodymyr.livejournal.com]

You are awesome! Thanks so much for this!

[flintultrasparc.livejournal.com]

Thanks, I try. The answer to me isn't "stop building", it's "build smarter".

where will the money come from?

[mjmj.livejournal.com]

Reduce the $500 billion annual Department of Defense's budget--it's half the U.S. federal discretionary budget and it's half of the worlds entire military spending.

military spending is almost universally understated. keep in mind that for decades the budget deficits that were approved have accumulated to generate a huge debt and its corresponding interest that is paid year after year.

http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm

Current military” includes Dept. of Defense ($653 billion), the military portion from other departments ($150 billion), and an additional $162 billion to supplement the Budget’s misleading and vast underestimate of only $38 billion for the “war on terror.” “Past military” represents veterans’ benefits plus 80% of the interest on the debt.

Note that when you add together past and current military spending it accounts for 54% of the federal budget, or about $1.5 trillion.

Re: where will the money come from?

[flintultrasparc.livejournal.com]

I agree.

It feels really nice to type that into the internet.

[mjmj.livejournal.com]

Joan Didion provides this reference (http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/10/17/next_president/?source=newsletter) to a study about the cost of insurance:

The leading candidates duly presented their "health care solutions," not one of which addressed the core problem, which is the $350 billion a year it costs, according to a Harvard Medical School study, to cut in the commercial insurance industry.

so, if the gov't. legislated a better solution to insurance for health care, some hundreds of billions of dollars would be available for productive use.

[starkyld.livejournal.com]

I am concerned about this as well. Sadly, though, I do not believe that there would be a revolution.

[pivovision]

people around me are absolutely BONKERS in love with obama. if the election is stolen, i think everyone in new york will be unable to get out of bed for a couple of months....then they'll just slowly go back to the same old grind like we did the last two times....
scared too...

[beginnersmind.livejournal.com]

I move back to China, for one.

[nightspore.livejournal.com]

Yes, to all your speculative questions. But I'll be $150 in the black!

[yanatonage.livejournal.com]

If Obama doesn't win I will not be surprised. The economy will suck for a while longer and it will feel about as dreary and miserable as the last eight years. I'm used to it.

If he does win, he may end up like Carcetti in season 5 of the wire: lots of promises, some good intentions, no money to back it up.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_swallow/]

there would be rioting in my neighborhood, i think.

[mjmj.livejournal.com]

there are many things he and the democrats could do, but even if he does win, what will he bother to do? he not only supported the banker bailout bill, he lobbied for it (according to other congresspeople). he not only didn't carry out his public promise to filibuster the retroactive immunity/warrant-less wiretapping bill, he
voted against filibustering (that is, for cloture). who are obama's financial advisers? former goldman sachs ceo rubin and his protege's. he praises paulson and buffet. none of these people believe in reform.

the 2006 election was a clear mandate for ending the occupation in iraq, but what did pelosi,reid,et al. do? nothing. (besides stick to their promise to keep impeachment "off the table", i mean.) besides the SCHIP bill, can anyone name any other bills that shrub vetoed? they gave him what he wanted. the country is ruled by a repub/repub-lite coalition, and i have only seen signs that obama is a member of this coalition.

[orpheusinhades.livejournal.com]

Think he will win, as I've mentioned. If he doesn't there will be some rioting, and some very serious anger.

Of course, most concerned about the anger if he DOES win - it's not like there aren't any fringe loons nutty enough to load up their guns for an Obama presidency.

Can he do anything? Probably. America is still a vastly powerful nation, and he's going to have a majority in both houses (I still doubt the filibuster-proof majority, but that might not be needed).

Things will get worse before they get better. But honestly with a sober, constructive left-winger in the White House I think things WILL get at least somewhat better by 2012.

[mjmj.livejournal.com]

tom toles shares your concern (http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickcomics/20081019/cx_tt_uc/tt20081019)

if it's stolen AGAIN

[congogirl.livejournal.com]

JFC I HOPE THERE ARE SOME FUCKING RIOTS. I WILL RIOT.

[fengi.livejournal.com]

If Obama loses there will be protests, and yelling. Then consumer spending will PLUNGE except for liquor and home video stuff.

The riots will come on February 17.

[bricology.livejournal.com]

I think that the likelihood of a serious attempt to out-and-out steal the election (such as through the machinations of Diebold), is about 1:4. It worries me. If that happens, I think that there would be rioting in the big cities where O. has the most support. Bush would call in the National Guard, and it could easily turn into a very ugly race war.

And so, I try to focus on the 75% likelihood of it not happening, O. winning by a landslide, and everyone living happily ever after.

[mjmj.livejournal.com]

O. winning by a landslide, and everyone living happily ever after.

i wish i shared your optimism. so far, his actions have been those of a DLC/repub-lite. events may force him towards addressing the reality of the problems instead of attempting to maintain the status-quo, business-as-usual policies that have lead us to this point.